next »

Welcome!
On Classical Education
The Lost Tools of Writing
Teaching: the teacher's life
Teaching: how to teach classically
Teaching: What to teach
The Art of School Leadership
Institutional Development
CiRCE Conferences
Classical Home Schooling

[sierrahotel]

First: Great format for the broadcast, its helps keep the ideas flowing beyond the summer conference.
Second: The only thing that saved me from "Christian" book burning and record collection destruction was Francis Schaeffer. He taught me that my God was big enough for the Arts, but I didn't really understand the "Why".
Third: I am thankful for the Forum and the opportunity to elaborate on my question to Andrew in last nights broadcast.
I personally first approached the classics with the promise of gaining a Christian Worldview. I was not at all sure what this meant, but everything seems to point to the reading of the classics.
I began with the Iliad.
What I found was this:
1.Really great story
2.Greek gods (which I had expected to loathe) were hilarious.
3.Very human story and timelessly human at that.
4.Masterful style.
Ok, so I read the book.....at this point I had no clue how this story was to affect my Christian worldview. I had not anticipated liking this book.After all it was pagan. I was stumped. Finally , (and the internet has been priceless in this point) I found books such as, Realms of Gold and Hero's of the City of Man. These books helped me bridge my paralysis, into the freedom to enjoy. Because my public school education had not prepared me for any of this. Nor had the church, nor Bible college. And what I want to emphasis is that the bridge did not tell me how to think. It gave me the freedom (permission) to think. I know that you often state that you dont what to give people the answers, you want them to think. But this is the heart of my question. I had little or no foundation upon which to build my questions let alone answers. Last night you said when we find something good we take it into the church. What church? I have yet to attend a church that has believers who want or are prepared to discuss the classics.  What are we to do when we think we have found truth in the classics, or non truth?
 Here I would use Dante's Paradise as a personal example. This work continues to stump me. I don't agree with the 'beauty' found in this book. (even as I say this, Im thinking 'how shallow') I am distracted by all the Aristotelian thinking-I simply what to see My Father. I barely understand the " so holy He cannot be described" along with the idealism of the Middle Ages. I feel completely UNQUALIFIED to make a judgment about this book. Yet, I have read it cover to cover several times. I have attempted to let the author speak. I find myself paralyzed again. I need a bridge. I would like a protestant bridge  I simply lack a foundation that would allow me to understand this work. Indeed I question how much time to spend trying to figure this out.
This I hope is a clear example of what I know many face as they come to the classics for the first time. As 21st century Christian's we have so much ground to recover....how do we deal with the truth or non-truth we find in the classics?
thanks sandi

[Andrew]

Sandi

Thanks for posting this. I wish I had had a chance to read it before last night's discussion. I remember this topic came up at last summer's conference and I realized something there about pagan writings. I realized that Christian kids have their faith undermined by their own Christian teachers because of the way we approach non-Christian writings. We're afraid of them and that makes us say things about them that are utterly untenable - like that they don't matter (only as much as the civilization they sustain!), they don't have truth in them, they are antithetical to the Bible, etc.

That last point may be the most important and essential. The pagan writers were not "antithetical" to the Bible in any meaningful, "worldview" kind of way. Not in the sense, as so many understand it, that we are right (with a nod to the implied "always") and they are wrong (with a wink to the hidden "always" again).

We are certainly set free to be right more often, at least theoretically, since we don't have to fear death or man, the two things that most easily lead us astray. But when people look carefully at reality, the way the Greeks did, they'll gain some great insights.

To argue otherwise is to slide into manichee or gnostic thinking, in which there is a realm of goodness and light that the initiated know, and that is utterly contrary to the realm of evil. That isn't what the Bible teaches. Evil is not the opposite of good, it is good corrupted. And every body can know goodnesss (is created to know the good, in fact) and every body can know truth.

Misunderstandings of Calvin and Luther reduced to pop theology have convinced us that there is something dangerous in everything a non-christian says while whatever a Christian says is pure and holy and reliable. If ever that was true, those days are gone.

So when we give our kids the impression that only Christians know the truth or produce worthwhile literature, we set them up for that distressing moment when they find that Christian art has become useless kitsch, harmful to the soul and secular art is often authentic and has something to say.

As to "what church?" I would certainly encourage you not to limit your life in the church only to those who attend the same assembly with you. The church has carried the truth of the gospel into myriads of cultures for 2000 years now and has learned a great deal in the process. Read the fathers. they're the most amazing. CS Lewis and GK Chesterton help make them easier to reach.

[sierrahotel]

To Summarize then:
1.Christians are not the only ones who have truth
2. A Christian Worldview is not a complete opposite of the Ancient Pagan Worldview.
3. The Greeks looked carefully at reality and gained real/true insight into "real" human life.
4. Many non-Christians produce meaningful/worthwhile  literary works. (worthy of study)
5. Goodness/truth is something universally (appreciated?? recognizable??)

{ok, I am forced to stop here and comment....."Evil is not the opposite of good, it is good corrupted." (I think this is Augustine's thoughts???correct??) But my thought is, this one idea could become the entire theme  of  a literature class. You have given a truth that can now be used to connect Christian truth to non-Christian truth. But my point again, is that for me this is another kind of bridge. Im not sure that you personally know how hard it is to find bridges.
(we are not all bridge builders)Your love of  Literature and Classical education has you personally making these kind of connection left and right. But this is extremely rare to find in print. Therefore, someone like myself is left recreating the wheel.}
I understand the recommendation to read the church fathers. But by your own admission their audience was not a generation of Christians who saw the pagans as antithetical to the Bible ,as our generation does.
As I said on the radio show, most Christians are way too interested in finding the bad, rather than the good.

If goodness is something we all can appreciate, why is it so hard for Christians to state what is the good? What is the beautiful? We have a handle on true, but only if we can give a scripture reference.
Or more to the point: What then is goodness? What is the beautiful?
How would you use, say the Iliad, to draw out examples of these universals in both Christian and Greek literature. Or would you connect the Christian to the Greek? Would you let the Greek good stand on its own merit? Or would you connect the Greek (found truth) to the Chrisitian (revealed truth)?
ps: if I ask enough questions, can I win the "stump" award twice??
sandi