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[Andrew]

Tertullian and Augustine had very different responses, both from each other and from, say St. Basil.

What happened over these centuries? Was classical education in the 7th century different from what it was in the 3rd century BC?

Any input is coveted here.

[BAP]

These thoughts aren't the entire picture, I know, but here's a suggestion with some references.

One thing that may have happened was a shift in the Church's basic orientation toward historical circumstances.  The earliest Church may have responded differently to classical education early on because of some basic similarities between oral cultures, regardless of their underlying metaphysics.  I think it's reasonable that 3rd-century BC classical education would differ significantly from 7th-century AD classical education.  It's even easier to see how 21st-century AD classical education could differ even more significantly.

A generalization of this is: More books, less immediate experience, including community life.  The development and systematization of theology may have contributed to a disconnection between the rational and the poetic that has been bourne out in Church schism and other events of our civilization's history, including the rise of modern science and the Enlightenment.  This is not to say that theological development is an evil, although it has often occurred reactively as groups have defined beliefs in terms of propositions to delineate their separation from other groups.

See Stephen R. Holmes' Listening to the Past for more on the interaction with tradition.  Holmes doesn't apply his ideas in the same way I am here, but I think your question reveals an aspect of his points that were beyond the scope of his book.  Another study of the conversion of an oral-visual culture to a text-based culture is Barbara Maria Stafford's Artful Science: Enlightenment Entertainment and the Eclipse of Visual Education.  Bernard Ramm's The Evangelical Heritage makes the point, among others, that theology has developed reactively rather than proactively because the stimuli leading to reactive development are more easily felt.

This is a good question.  I hope others will join in.

[Andrew]

Me too BAP, but so far nobody seems interested!

[Buck]

I realize this may be a discussion that has long passed, but I have a particular interest in the role that the church played in filtering history through the lens of Christ which in effect became the foundation of all subsequent Western history. 

There are two things that immediately come to mind, but the relation that I am thinking of to the classical world of the Greeks stands with the 1st and 4th century AD.  One would be the way in which the initial followers of Jesus understood his identity as the Logos embracing and yet redefining the classical Greek concept of the term.  The second would be the deliberate yet careful distinction that was made at the time of Nicea between the two previous and synonymous terms of ousia and hypostasis.  This was a radical act that projected an entirely different ontology of being.

The influence and impact of Christ for the early church was far more than a tug on the heart.  I believe that he changed the entire way in which people looked at and understood the world.  It was more than a spiritual check-up; it was a reality shift.  I can't help but think that this had some impact on the idea of classical eductation.

I hope some are still interested.

Buck

[BAP]

Buck, do you think the reality shift you mentioned was simply a radical redifinition, or do you think it was characterized by limited redefinition--some of it fundamental--accompanied by expansion of scope?

Brad

[Buck]

If by "limited redefinition" and "expansion of scope" you are refering directly to Christ, then yes.  But, as for the effect that had for all of creation, then no.  Through Christ all of reality took on (re)new(ed) meaning.  By the parentheses I am suggesting that it was as though a veil was lifted -- there was one that was torn!

However, I am a little uncertain of what you are getting at, and a bit cautious in my reply.

[BAP]

I was getting at the question of whether or not the shift could be properly referred to as "radical" because I think the answer clarifies a variety of metaphysical questions.  I think those questions are the roots of interaction between the Church and classical education, and they could explain much of the difference of reception of the gospel across many different intellectual traditions.

[davidwright2000]

I'm not sure what to make of this thread so far.  Hence, I have taken another look at the question-- tried to isolate it.  How did the early church respond to classical education? In other words, what was classical education like after Christ during the early church?

Did it then become a hybrid of Greek and Roman studies and Christian thought (theology and scripture study)?

I think it would depend in large part on where and when education was taking place. In the Roman empire before Constantine, there weren't really schools per se, but rather, education happened primarily in the context of the family.  The wealthy provided Greek tutors for their children. But schools did begin to emerge. They had a standard liberal arts curriculum (Greek and Roman literature, dialectics, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music). Greek studies had been essential since contact with the Greek world during the Macedonian Wars (second and third century B.C.) raised an interest in Greek thought.

But after Constantine the curriculum probably began to incorporate Christian thought. I'm just guessing here.  But how so, in what ways, and in what regions? Would Augustine and his education give us some insight as to how the early church responded to classical education?

David

[SteveE]

I am interested in this thread as well, but need some help or direction.  So...Andrew or someone else...can you either help me see the basic differences you are referencing between the 3rd and 7th century enfleshments of education, or can you guide me to the right place(s) to read up and understand these differences for myself.  My limited knowledge has me feeling in my gut that perhaps much of the differences were ones of refinement, but I am too ignorant to argue even that.  Help?  Direction?

[Buck]

Steve,

One resource that I recently read and found very helpful in regards to Greek, Roman, and early Christian education is Henri Marrou's A History of Education in Antiquity.

In regards to the theological effects of the logos for the early church and how it has historically unfolded I would recommend Colin E. Gunton's The Triune Creator.

And for a heavy dose of early church ontology from a Cappadocian perspective by an Orthodox theologian, read John Zizioulas' Being as Communion.

Buck

[Andrew]

I'm not sure what to make of this thread so far.  Hence, I have taken another look at the question-- tried to isolate it.  How did the early church respond to classical education? In other words, what was classical education like after Christ during the early church?

Did it then become a hybrid of Greek and Roman studies and Christian thought (theology and scripture study)?

I think it would depend in large part on where and when education was taking place. In the Roman empire before Constantine, there weren't really schools per se, but rather, education happened primarily in the context of the family.  The wealthy provided Greek tutors for their children. But schools did begin to emerge. They had a standard liberal arts curriculum (Greek and Roman literature, dialectics, arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music). Greek studies had been essential since contact with the Greek world during the Macedonian Wars (second and third century B.C.) raised an interest in Greek thought.

David, I think you would find it valuable to reflect on the reign of Julian the apostate. I wonder about using Constantine as the beginning of schools. I thought that happened more in the first century under the Empire because the Republican families couldn't be counted on any more (having been wiped out every few generations).

YOU said: But after Constantine the curriculum probably began to incorporate Christian thought. I'm just guessing here.  But how so, in what ways, and in what regions? Would Augustine and his education give us some insight as to how the early church responded to classical education?

this would make sense, but the transition was gradual. There does't seem to have been an option in people's minds. If you were educated, you got a hellenistic/classical education. it prepared you for rule and to e a gentleman.

T


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